Egypt's Foreign Minister Badr Abdelatty: "It Is Shameful to Just Stand By and Watch"
SOURCE:Spiegel International
Is the ceasefire in Gaza going to hold? In an interview, Egyptian Foreign Minister Badr Abdelatty expresses cautious optimism. Hamas must be disarmed, he says, and the West must do more for reconstruction.
![Egyptian Foreign Minister Badr Abdelatty: "We are not at an impasse."](https://cdn.prod.www.spiegel.de/images/0f31cdd0-3f21-4b6d-a07e-2dc5e986fec2_w960_r1.778_fpx57_fpy47.jpg "Egyptian Foreign Minister Badr Abdelatty: "We are not at an impasse."")
Egyptian Foreign Minister Badr Abdelatty: "We are not at an impasse."
Foto: Marzena Skubatz / DER SPIEGEL
DER SPIEGEL: Mr. Abdelatty, the peace deal for Gaza is continually on the verge of failure. Does U.S. President Donald Trump’s plan have a chance?
Abdelatty: We have no choice but to try, because the alternative would be further destruction, killings and the starvation of the civilian population. We have seen this for two years without any effective intervention from the international community. Our goal now is to stabilize the ceasefire. Failure is not an option. That is why we must spare no effort and no time, but must do everything in our power to ensure that Trump's peace plan and the Security Council resolution are implemented on the ground.
DER SPIEGEL: The 20-point plan was drafted in large part by Trump’s son-in-law and the New York real estate investor Steve Witkoff. Has geopolitics become the business of the super-rich?
Abdelatty: We have to be very honest. Without the Americans, it would have been impossible to achieve a ceasefire in Gaza. The commitment of President Trump and the U.S. administration is extremely important, even crucial to maintaining the ceasefire and pushing ahead with the delivery of humanitarian aid to Gaza.
Foto:
Marzena Skubatz / DER SPIEGEL
Badr Ahmed Mohamed Abdelatty, 59, has been Egypt's foreign minister since July 2024. He has a degree in political science and can look back on a long career as a diplomat. Abdelatty was once Egypt's ambassador to Germany and also led the Palestinian Affairs division in the Foreign Ministry.
DER SPIEGEL: Who could provide the security forces on the ground that would also be responsible for disarming Hamas?
Abdelatty: That would be the main task of the Palestinian police officers. As we speak, Egypt is training up to 5,000 Palestinians who are ready to take on responsibility in Gaza. We are currently working with the Germans and other Europeans, among others, to offer further training for Palestinians. If we succeed in training them, we will be able to deploy 10,000 Palestinians on the ground who will be responsible for security and law enforcement.
DER SPIEGEL: At the moment, Hamas still has control of the Gaza Strip. Is the group even ready to agree to a disarmament?
Enjoying our international coverage?
In "SPIEGEL – The German View" on Substack, we offer even more in depth, independent and deeply reported insights into how Germany sees the U.S., global crises, and the future of democracy.
And if you subscribe on Substack, you get early access!
Abdelatty: There are obligations on both sides, and that is what the second phase is about. We have to proceed step by step. And above all, we need the commitment of the U.S. and Trump himself in particular. There are various approaches to how disarmament can be implemented in concrete terms.
DER SPIEGEL: What are they?
Abdelatty: We have the Northern Ireland model, which was very successful. We need a Palestinian or Arab-Islamic umbrella organization to monitor and coordinate the disarmament. This will place all armed groups under a single legitimate authority so that a Palestinian administrative committee can begin its work and take care of the basic needs of the Palestinians in Gaza.
![Destruction in the Gaza Strip: "Unfortunately, everyone just stood by and watched what was happening without intervening, without doing anything."](https://cdn.prod.www.spiegel.de/images/bd3586e9-a99b-47fb-82dc-a6ef19eaa987_w488_r1.4998495335540174_fpx58.65_fpy49.99.jpg "Destruction in the Gaza Strip: "Unfortunately, everyone just stood by and watched what was happening without intervening, without doing anything."")
Destruction in the Gaza Strip: "Unfortunately, everyone just stood by and watched what was happening without intervening, without doing anything."
Foto: Mahmud Hams / AFP
DER SPIEGEL: First, though, Hamas is demanding a clear roadmap for a Palestinian state. Is the process at an impasse?
Abdelatty: We are not at an impasse. We have implemented the first phase, so let us now concentrate on the second phase. Once the second phase is complete, there will naturally be more momentum. We must give the Palestinians hope, and the ultimate goal will be the realization of a Palestinian state.
DER SPIEGEL: The second phase calls for an international stabilization force to ensure security in Gaza, thus creating the conditions needed for a political transition. Who will take the lead?
Abdelatty: The stabilization force will primarily monitor the ceasefire, secure the external borders and ensure the operation of border crossings.
DER SPIEGEL: Is there competition among Arab states regarding who will lead this force?
Abdelatty: No, anyone who wants to contribute is welcome.
DER SPIEGEL: Egypt has a strong military and would certainly have a strong interest in taking the lead, wouldn’t it?
Abdelatty: That is currently still being coordinated with the United States. First, the mandate and mission of this force must be defined, then we will clarify which countries will provide soldiers and what the command-and-control structures will look like.
DER SPIEGEL: Winter is approaching and the people of Gaza are living in rubble. Who is going to pay for the reconstruction plan? And what do you expect from Germany?
Abdelatty: We are currently engaged in intensive consultations with all regional and international partners. We are coordinating with the EU, Germany, France, Spain, Italy, the Gulf states, other Arab countries, Japan and other partners. The reconstruction is to be financed by the entire international community.
DER SPIEGEL: More than 100,000 people are thought to have been killed in Gaza, many of them women and children. The life expectancy for people in Gaza has almost been cut in half. Why is Egypt still not taking in refugees?
Abdelatty: If the Israelis drive people from their homeland, they will not allow them to return. That would be a one-way street and the end of the Palestinian question. The dystopia of "a land without people” would become reality. We must provide food to the Palestinians in Gaza and rebuild Gaza as quickly as possible in order to solve the problem.
"We have rejected many offers, including economic incentives."
DER SPIEGEL: Trump has spent months pressuring Egypt and Jordan to take in Palestinians. How has your government been able to resist?
Abdelatty: Egypt is the most important regional power in the Middle East and will never participate in injustices against the Palestinians. We have rejected many offers, including economic incentives, because it is a matter of principle.
DER SPIEGEL: During the Gaza war, you signed a multi-billion-dollar gas deal with Israel. It was a move that received a lot of criticism.
Abdelatty: That is a matter between private companies. The government cannot intervene. Moreover, this deal has not even been finalized yet.
DER SPIEGEL: You have just returned from Islamabad. Is your closer security cooperation with Pakistan and Turkey a direct consequence of the war in Gaza and the United States’ clear pro-Israeli partisanship?
Abdelatty: We have a strategic relationship with the United States and have been working very closely with them for 40 years – and we will continue to cooperate with them to find a peaceful solution to the Palestinian question. At the same time, we apply the principle of strategic balance: We are open to all regional and international partners. Our close relationship with the U.S. has not prevented us from also maintaining strategic relations with Russia, China and India.
![Abdelatty in conversation with DER SPIEGEL journalists in Berlin: "You are drawing the wrong conclusions."](https://cdn.prod.www.spiegel.de/images/88bb4675-04b1-43a5-be3f-8300c8abf920_w488_r1.499335232668566_fpx52.69_fpy45.jpg "Abdelatty in conversation with DER SPIEGEL journalists in Berlin: "You are drawing the wrong conclusions."")
Abdelatty in conversation with DER SPIEGEL journalists in Berlin: "You are drawing the wrong conclusions."
Foto: Marzena Skubatz / DER SPIEGEL
DER SPIEGEL: Arab diplomats have expressed significant frustration with the U.S. and Germany over the past two years for providing significant military support to Israel.
Abdelatty: Yes, we in Egypt are also very frustrated. It is shameful for the international community to just stand by and watch as people are systematically killed and famine is created in Gaza. In the case of Ukraine, the West invokes principles, but in the case of Gaza, these principles are ignored and it is accepted that a state places itself above the law – without sanctions, without serious reactions.
DER SPIEGEL: It also took a while for Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi to find clear words.
Abdelatty: No, that's not right. Egypt organized its first major international conference, the Cairo Summit for Peace, on October 21, 2023. We called on the international community to take decisive action and end this war. But unfortunately, everyone just stood by and watched what was happening without intervening, without doing anything. And when the Israelis talked about expulsion, we immediately said no.
DER SPIEGEL: For years, human rights organizations have been reporting on comprehensive surveillance in Egypt, arbitrary arrests, torture and unfair trials. Is the government so afraid of its own people?
Abdelatty: Unfortunately, you are drawing the wrong conclusions from unconfirmed information. Egypt is facing major challenges, but we remain committed to respecting fundamental rights – not to please the West, but our own people. We want to deepen and strengthen human rights, and we believe that developments over the past 10 years show clear progress.
"We cannot accept sermons, because after the shameful failure to deal with what happened in Gaza, unfortunately no state has the moral authority to lecture us."
DER SPIEGEL: For example?
Abdelatty: As foreign minister, I chair the Supreme Standing Committee for Human Rights and oversee the implementation of our national human rights strategy. We have also reactivated the Presidential Pardon Committee, through which many people, especially young people, have been released. On the order of the president, we are now developing a new human rights strategy for the period after 2027 in dialogue with NGOs and civil society. Around 45,000 non-governmental organizations operate in Egypt.
DER SPIEGEL: Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch had to pull out of Egypt because they were no longer able to freely conduct their work.
Abdelatty: I am talking about Egyptian NGOs. International organizations should rely on reliable witnesses and listen to the other side.
DER SPIEGEL: We have a list of names of young men who are still in prison and of families who complain of arbitrary arrests.
Abdelatty: The Presidential Pardon Committee is determined to resolve all these cases, and we are making progress. The president has given clear instructions to open up the political arena.
DER SPIEGEL: How do you ensure that innocent people are not arbitrarily arrested?
Abdelatty: You have to distinguish between those who have carried out terrorist attacks against civilians, the army or the police, and those who have no blood on their hands. If you're asking me whether we're perfect? Absolutely not. Nobody is perfect. Look at Europe. Some young people simply demonstrated in support of the Palestinians. They did nothing wrong, and yet the authorities threatened them with deportation.
DER SPIEGEL: That isn’t really a comparison.
Abdelatty: We cannot accept sermons, because after the shameful failure to deal with what happened in Gaza, unfortunately no state has the moral authority to lecture us.
"Europe has aging societies, while Egypt has a young population with many skilled workers."
DER SPIEGEL: In the past several years, Egypt has taken in millions of refugees from the region. What effect has that had on your country?
Abdelatty: It is a very difficult situation, for which the Egyptian people are paying a high price. According to our figures, around 10 million refugees are living in the country, mainly from Sudan, Yemen, Syria and Libya. At the same time, this is hitting us at a time when we are already suffering from the consequences of the war in Ukraine, with high inflation and sharply rising grain prices.
DER SPIEGEL: The Suez Canal is one of Egypt’s most important revenue streams. But because of Houthi attacks in the Red Sea, earnings have dropped by around 60 percent. What can your government do to counter this?
Abdelatty: Firstly, the ceasefire in the Gaza Strip must hold so that the Houthis halt their attacks. Secondly, a political solution is needed in Yemen to stabilize the situation there.
DER SPIEGEL: Many Palestinians complain that they have no rights in Egypt. They are unable to obtain residency status, open a bank account or enroll their children in school.
Abdelatty: No, we provide them with everything we can – far beyond our actual capacities. But the burden is enormous, and we are not at all satisfied with the contribution of our partners, including those in Europe. We are not blackmailing anyone; we are not using this issue as leverage to gain advantages. Nevertheless, we need a fair burden-sharing arrangement because all of this is costing us a great deal. The situation is extremely difficult and we need significantly more support from the international community – especially from Germany.
Related Article
DER SPIEGEL: Egypt has just signed a migration deal with Switzerland. Furthermore, an EU-Egypt summit was recently held in Brussels, which also addressed the issue of curbing irregular migration. So the European countries are paying money …
Abdelatty: ... far too little money ...
DER SPIEGEL: … to keep migrants out of Europe. Have you become something like Europe’s border police?
Abdelatty: Don't forget: Egypt was the first country in history to take in refugees – Jesus Christ and the Virgin Mary. We open our doors to brothers and sisters fleeing war. That is part of our culture and our sense of solidarity with our neighbors, but there is a line we must not cross. Secondly, we do not want people to risk their lives through irregular migration – that is a central part of our border policy. It is about preventing young people from dying while trying to cross the Mediterranean. If we opened our borders to human smuggling, they could also be abused for the smuggling of terrorists, weapons and drugs.
DER SPIEGEL: Did you achieve anything in this regard during your talks in Berlin?
Abdelatty: We are not talking about charity here, but about promoting regular migration, and that is very important. Europe has aging societies, while Egypt has a young population with many skilled workers. We can help by sending young, talented people to Europe for a certain period of time to work there and then return.
